In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus perplexingly teaches an inside-out way of life: brokenness is the way to wholeness, mourning is the path to blessing, emptiness is required for true fullness. In many ways the Bible espouses countercultural, counter-intuitive truths and paradoxical principles.

Bible Gateway interviewed Kyle Idleman (@KyleIdleman) about his book, The End of Me: Where Real Life in the Upside-Down Ways of Jesus Begins (David C. Cook, 2015).

What does the title of the book mean?

Kyle Idleman: the end of me is a reference to the call of Christ to die to ourselves and find life in him (Matt. 16:24-25). This idea that in dying we find life, captures many of the upside-down and paradoxical teachings of Christ which this book explores. For example Jesus taught us that we are broken to be whole, last to be first, empty to be filled, humbled to be exalted, and weak to be strong. When we come to the end of ourselves we find that Jesus meets us there and offers us real life in him (Col. 3:3-4).

Why was it important for you to devote time and effort to make this the focus of a book?

Kyle Idleman: One word to describe the teachings of Jesus that this book explores would be paradoxical. His propositions are often seemingly absurd and self-contradictory. The life he calls us to live often flies in the face of what we naturally believe and how we personally feel. Because of this dynamic, most of us try to respond to Jesus with a more reasonable and measured approach. But what I’ve learned personally and as a pastor is that this approach doesn’t work. I love witnessing what happens when people begin to embrace these paradoxes and learn to live with a new kingdom perspective.

For those who may not know, what’s the context of Jesus’s Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew? And why did you choose this Sermon to be the foundation of your book?

Kyle Idleman: Jesus’ best-known lesson is called the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7)—the “mount” being the location where he begins to teach his disciples about a new way of life. Specifically, Jesus is most likely speaking from the mountain just above the Sea of Galilee. What makes this location significant is that revolutionaries would often lay low in these very mountains in an effort to avoid arrest. So, the not so subtle inference is that Jesus is another revolutionary. In his sermon he pits the kingdom of this world against the kingdom of heaven. He challenges us to look at our lives through a different lens.

How are the words of Jesus in his Sermon counter-intuitive to the average way of living?

Kyle Idleman: When coming to a fork in the road we’ll intuitively choose the road that’s broad. We intuitively will take the easiest and most comfortable path (Matt. 7:13-15). We intuitively think that’s what will make us the happiest. Jesus begins the Sermon on the Mount with “The Beatitudes” (Matt. 5:3-12) where he takes what we intuitively think about living a blessed and happy life and turns it upside down. It’s not that what he says is just different from what we would think, but it’s the opposite of what we would think.

Explain for us one of the principles you explore in the book: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” and how it applies to today’s world.

Kyle Idleman: The four words of this first Beatitude are “Blessed are the poor” (Matt. 5:3). It’s easy to brush past that; to squint at it just right, interpret it as poetry, or take it as some Zen-type thing that’s supposed to sound cool but doesn’t actually make any sense. Because what makes sense from our world’s perspective is “Blessed are the rich.” If you say to a rich person, “Hey, you have a beautiful mansion here,” what does the rich person say? “Yes, I know. I’m so rich.” Nope. I bet you the rich person says, “Thank you. I’m so blessed.” We equate blessing with being rich, not being poor.

But Jesus says we’re blessed when we are bankrupt in spirit. The word we might use is broke. When we come to the end of ourselves and reach the point where we declare bankruptcy and admit we have nothing to offer is when we find ourselves in a position to experience the kingdom of heaven. Jesus says the kingdom begins with taking inventory and coming up with zero.

What is the blessing of facing up to sin?

Kyle Idleman: Throughout Scripture there’s a connection between mourning over sin—of every kind—and receiving God’s blessing. Israel often mourned together as a nation, and received God’s blessing as a nation. In Psalm 32 David personally talks about the weight of carrying his hidden sin and the blessing and freedom he experienced when he finally came clean. There’s a joy and peace that come—and only come—when we finally let ourselves see the sin, and let our eyes shed tears for it. I realize it sounds a little crazy, but more and more I actually feel something like gratitude that I’m able to mourn my sin before a merciful and gracious God. There’s pain in confession, and then, on the other side, there’s a feeling like cool water washing over me on a blazing hot day. I understand our reluctance to face our sin, but just understand that, in your hesitancy to mourn your sin, you’re also delaying the blessing of God in your life (1 John 1:9).

What are your thoughts about Bible Gateway and the role it can play in a person who is impacted by The End of Me?

Kyle Idleman: Maybe the greatest challenge of making the journey to “the end of me” is that it requires us to follow a set of directions that go against what we’re constantly told. The compass of the kingdom of heaven takes us in an opposite direction the compass of our culture. Bible Gateway points us to the right path—the narrow road—and helps us see how God’s Word applies to our lives.

Is there anything else you’d like to say?

Kyle Idleman: Years ago I was taught the simple truth that what God does through you, he does in you first. I’ve certainly found that to be true in my own ministry. There have been times I’ve tried to let God work through me, while resisting his work in me and it hasn’t worked out well. So my commitment as a pastor and an author is to daily ask God what does he want to do in me and then ask God to work through me. Each of these chapters speaks to something God has taught me on the journey to the end of myself, and my prayer is that others would join me on this journey, as together we discover our real life that’s hidden in Christ with God (Col. 3:3-4).

Bio: Kyle Idleman is the teaching pastor at Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky, the fifth largest church in America. The bestselling author of the award-winning book Not a Fan: Becoming a Completely Committed Follower of Jesus and AHA: The God Moment That Changes Everything is a frequent speaker at conferences and events around the world. Kyle and his wife, DesiRae, have four children.